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Monday, September 20, 2010

DWIGHT GROSZ: THE REAL AGENDA OF MEASURE TWO

What is the real agenda of Measure Two, the captive-hunting initiative on the November ballot? Is it simply about abolishing hunting of farmed elk and deer. One of the big question marks out there amongst the public is, "people own domestic elk and deer?" They were purchased from the federal government or the U.S. Biological Survey back in the 1920s, same time as buffalo. They are several generations removed from the wild. They are private property same as buffalo.

The measure: BE IT ENACTED BY THE PEOPLE OF THE STATE OF NORTH DAKOTA: SECTION 1. A new section to chapter 36-01 of the North Dakota Century Code is created and enacted as follows: Fee killing of certain captive game animals prohibited – Penalty – Exception. A person is guilty of a class A misdemeanor if the person obtains fees or other remuneration from another person for the killing or attempted killing of privately-owned big game species or exotic mammals confined in or released from any man-made enclosure designed to prevent escape. This section does not apply to the actions of a government employee or agent to control an animal population, to prevent or control diseases, or when government action is otherwise required or authorized by law. SECTION 2. EFFECTIVE DATE. This Act becomes effective on November 1, 2012.

The measure does not say farmed elk, bison or deer. It does not say hunting, owner or on farm slaughter. If it were passed in Nov. it will have to go to court to decipher its code. A judge may throw it out as it means nothing. However, it is written so vaguely, a judge could interpret it broadly. It could have far more ramifications than what the public is being told or what voters would even allow. Language like this would never make it out of a legislative committee. It would be amended to say what it means.

The sponsers of the measure are a coalition of three things.No.1 Elitist fair chasers. If you don't hunt the way they do then just stay home. No.2 Animal Rights Advocates. They like the language of this measure as it would be placed in the livestock section of the NDCC. Think about it, no killing or attempted killing of an animal confined in or released from any man-made enclosure designed to prevent escape. It could be a future virus planted in the livestock section. No.3 Certain current/retired federal government employees from the United States Fish and Wildlife Service and the United States Geological Survey. There are seven who are/were sponsers of the fair chase initiative in 2007 and now in 2009. They refuse to recognize "farmed elk and deer." Theirs is a militant approach. Nature knows best.

Whether it's high fence hunting, cattle burping and farting methane, navigateable waters, wolves, CRP, spotted owls, wetlands, global warming, lead ammunition and just about every other politcal debate we are having, it increasingly defines the two world views between states rights and federal encroachment.

Those who don't believe governmental control and regulation are the answer to every problem should be in panic mode. We simply do not know how to deal with the situation effectively. We can't identify who is pulling the levers and why.

Propondents of statism-the concentration of economic controls and planning in the hands of a highly centralized government-not only understand this but are actively creating crisis in order to advance their agenda.

Measure two is about the delivery-ethics, disease, it's not fair-coming from the fair chase committee. Create a "crisis discipline." Pound the table with emotion when the facts are not on their side.

Using the fair chase committee as a front and using the press they realize that there is no such thing as bad publicity. Social change is always about pressure. Newsworthy or colorfull demonstrations in the streets are the tested, tried and true method to grow the number of uninterested voters. Trial by media.

The chairman of the fair chase committee, Roger Kaseman moved to North Dakota about six years ago from California. His activities with the Humane Society are well documented. At a public forum in Jamestown ND he said, "We do not recognize property rights." The word "we" is plural. He was speaking for the committee as a whole. The man seated next to him was Lloyd Jones, sponser of the measure, federal employee with the USFWS.

The proponents of the measure do not want the government to take physical possession of the animal because then they would have to compensate the owner.

Property is defined as five things:
No.1 Possession
No.2 Use
No.3 Control
No.4 To the exclusion of others
No.5 Disposition

This isn't about the ethics of hunting in a high fence as much as it is a stripping away of options and economic value on property with no compensation. Take away the option of how these animals are sold and make them worth as much as an unwanted horse. Force every elk and deer grower out of business. That is the real agenda.

Please vote no on Measure Two

Click here to email your elected representatives.

Comments

Avatar for Roger Kaseman

Dwight, Roger Kaseman.

Still up to your old tricks.

The Jamestown meeting was videotaped by at least 3 of your cohorts. You ought to have no trouble posting video me saying that “ ‘We don’t believe in property rights.’ ” You Tube is a good place to post video.

For the record, I have never said that, and will never say that, is this lifetime, or in any lifetime.

Dwight, YOU ARE A LIAR.

I paraphrased the United States District Court Judge that heard one of several appeals Montana High Fence Shooting Gallery Operators filed after Montana voters outlawed Shooting Gallery operations in that state. I paraphrased in Jamestown; here is a direct quote from Judge Sam Haddon’s opinion:

“Game Ranchers cannot challenge I-143 (The Montana Ballot Measure) on the basis that it … deprives them of equal protection under either the United States or Montana constitution. The initiative neither discriminates against a suspect class nor implicates a recognized fundamental property right. Game Ranchers do not have an absolute or unfettered right to operate an alternative livestock ranch as they see fit. Alternative livestock operations are dependent upon licenses from the state. A license is not a vested right. It is a privilege granted by the state. A license ... comes from the state, and may be withheld completely.”

…. “nor implicates a recognized fundamental property right.”

“Game Ranchers do not have an absolute or unfettered right….”

That is as clear as you can get on the phantom right you claim.

The lawyer representing Robert Spoklie, the Montana Shooting Gallery Operator, could not cite a single court case that supported Spoklie’s claim to this phantom right.

Dwight, neither the state nor the federal constitution recognize the right you claim. No court, state or federal, recognizes the phantom right to fence elk inside your 200 acre pasture, renamed them Farmed Elk, and then pass shooting them off as hunting.

Folks reading this, go to the following link. Scroll down. The elk in the back of the pickup were “hunted” in Dwight’s fenced pasture. Click on the picture to enlarge it. See the fence in the background.

http://www.northdakotafairchase.com/Hall_of_Shame.htm

Roger Kaseman on September 21, 2010 at 09:20 am

I would be more inclined to support the opponents of Measure 2 if they stuck to the ethics of high fence hunting rather than use such a distorted view of property rights.

No one, legally or morally, has an absolute right to use, abuse, or dispose of property as they wish.  All property rights are limited.  Opponents should stick to whether the limits placed are reasonable rather than a scary and dangerous view about property rights.

water joe on September 21, 2010 at 11:53 am
Avatar for LT

The night of the public forum I witnessed an elk grower handing out a piece of paper that stated: “Neither ‘property’ nor the value of property is a physical thing. Property is a set of defined options…It is that set of options which has economic value…It is the options, and not the physical things, which are the ‘property’ - economically as well as legally… But because the public tends to think of property as tangible, physical things, this opens the way politically for government confiscation of property by forcibly taking away options while leaving the physical objects untouched.”
- Thomas Sowell

And what happened next is what got me involved in this issue:  A federal employee who works for the Northern Prairie Wildlife Research Center in Jamestown which is part of the US Geological Survey took the paper from the elk grower, read it, and threw it back at him stating: “You F’n landowners and your F’n property rights, that shit doesn’t mean anything to me.”

Roger, pretty ironic that you are calling Mr. Grosz a liar, when your whole measure and the collection of the signatures have been based on lies and mistruths! 

At the state fair, people were flat out being told the animals were stolen or it was implied by just telling people they put a fence around these animals and then shoot them. In the September issue of Dakota Country magazine, the same sponsor actually admits to using Article 11, Section 27 of the North Dakota Constitution to gather signatures.  This section proclaims the right of the public to preserve and manage WILD game for the public good.  Farmed elk and privately owned deer do NOT fall under the scope of Article 11, Section 27 as they are not defined as “wild game” anywhere in the North Dakota Century Code.

So Roger, you may never say that you don’t believe in property rights, but I do believe you do not believe in the property rights of these elk ranchers.  Your group refuses to recognize the ownership of “farmed” elk and deer. 

Therefore I believe it is your mission to shut all game farms down by using the exact method that was admitted to by the Wildlife Federation Lawyer in Montana.  He told the judge when asked “if this was truly about disease” then why didn’t you just get rid of all game farms.  His response was because if we had done that, it would have been a takings, this way it is only a PARTIAL takings.  Therefore no compensation is needed.  The judge asked him, but isn’t that what you have done by taking away a main source of income.

LT on September 22, 2010 at 08:43 am
Avatar for LT

And one more thing Roger, if you believe it is unethical to shoot elk and deer behind fences and call it hunting, explain to me why your group is only targeting elk and deer and claims that this measure will not affect buffalo?  I believe there are actually more advertised hunts of buffalo behind a fence in our state.  Some of these same elk ranchers also have buffalo on their preserves.  So it will still be okay if this measure passes for them to offer buffalo hunts. 

How is one ethical and not the other?

LT on September 22, 2010 at 09:06 am
Avatar for HunterND

Dwight,

He says she says is really irrelavent to what this measure is about.

Why aren’t you defending your guaranteed success and shooting animals bouncing between fences under the guise of hunting?

This fact sheet link below contains just that, facts about this activity and why those who went to the effort of gathering the signatures would like the people of North Dakota to decide if they want this activity being associated with our great state.  Sounds pretty much like the Democratic way, not some kind of conspiracy.

http://www.northdakotafairchase.com/fact_sheet.html

HunterND on September 22, 2010 at 08:28 pm
Avatar for Roger Kaseman

LT, it’s not that I may not have said I don’t believe in property rights, it’s I never said I don’t believe in property rights. It’s not that I refuse to recognize the property rights of elk ranchers, it’s a plethora of courts that don’t recognize that phantom right because it is a phantom right, hallucinatory in the minds of Canned hunt operators and this supporters. Several Montana trial courts could not find the right you proclaim. The Montana Supreme Court could not find the right. The United States District Court could not find the right in either the state or federal constitution, or in any law book or court decision. Three judges of the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals looked for that right, but could not find it. The United States Supreme Court looked at the case and refused to waste its time on a wild goose chase looking for a phantom right. The lawyers for the Montana operators looked and could not find that right. Can send you’re the court opinion where the judge writes that they could not cite a single case the supported their claim.

If you want the right, put tighter a constitutional amendment, get 25,688 North Dakotans to sign a petition, and we’ll all vote on it.

The beauty of democracy is that a guy like me, never deeper into the political system deeper than voting and bitching about the shortcomings of the system, can actually make a difference. All it takes is the courage you’re your convictions and a lot of time on your feet talking to people until you have talked enough to fill a petition. That’s how it works.

Roger Kaseman on September 22, 2010 at 10:22 pm
Avatar for Dwight Grosz

Roger,

Farmed elk are privately owned. They were purchased from the federal government back in the 20’s. If the federal government has reversed its decision to sell surplus elk to ranchers then let’s be up front about it. My animals are for sale. I believe you and certain fedgov employees are currently having a problem with laws that were passed in the 1990s by our North Dakota legislature. I shall let you tell the story in your own words:

http://www.nodakoutdoors.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=81530&start=80

Somebody wrote something in a previous post about stealing the animals inside the fence from the wild. That bothered me, so I did some research from original sources. I got out my King James version of the Bible, opened it to Genesis, and found a part of the creation story that I’ve managed to missed over the years.

Genesis Chapter 1.1, verse 20.01, says, “And on the ninth day, God created Captive Wildlife, animals to be held in a cage, fence, enclosure, or other manmade means of confinement that limits its movement within definite boundaries ....”

On the eleventh day, God said, “It is not good to call Captive Wildlife, Captive Wildlife, for surely, captivity shall make them meek and spiritless. I shall call Captive Wildlife, Nontraditional Livestock, for surely, mankind will not confuse these creatures created by My hand, with Wildlife. The name Captive Wildlife shall make Wildlife like cattle in the field, and sheep in a fold, each in turn led to slaughter upon payment of an offering.”

On the thirteenth day, God looked at his creation and said, “It is not good to name Captive Wildlife, Captive Wildlife, nor is it good to name Nontraditional Livestock, Nontraditional Livestock, for to call them Livestock demeans My Wild Creation. From this day forward, Captive Wildlife and Nontraditional Livestock, shall be Farmed Elk, for it is better for Mankind to call them by this name.”

God rested and beheld His new creation, and He was sorely troubled.

The Archangel Gabriel approached the throne and said, “Lord, hear Your humble servant. Behold, in Your infinite wisdom, You created Captive Wildlife, and then You created Nontraditional Livestock, and then You created Farmed Elk. Lord, You created this miracle for the good of all mankind, yet You are troubled.”

And God said, “Is it good that a few of Mankind keep these new creatures I have made out of the dust of the Earth in a fold like sheep?”

And the Archangel Gabriel said, “Lord, a few Men among Mankind prayed to their lawgivers for these new creatures and You answered their prayer.

And God said, “Is it good to make that which I created wild and free, captive and meek and spiritless, so that a few Men may serve mammon?”

Dwight Grosz on September 22, 2010 at 11:41 pm
Avatar for Roger Kaseman

Dwight, Genesis Chapter 1.1, verse 20.01 is a clue. The Ninth day, the Eleventh day, and Thirteenth day, all odd numbered days. The Legislature meets on odd years. That is a clue.

Dwight, you are trying to bamboozle the people of North Dakota with the claim that your Shooting Gallery Operations are old and that age makes them untouchable.

The Geneses of your operations makes them infants. A brief history of that Genesis:

In 1991, Senate Bill 2221 created Captive Wildlife, the Geneses of High Fence Shooting Gallery Operations. The bill defined Captive Wildlife as “... any wildlife held in a cage, fence, enclosure, or other manmade means of confinement that limits its movement within definite boundaries ....”

In 1993, the legislature realized that the term “Captive Wildlife” is an oxymoron and replaced the term with “Nontraditional Livestock” via the creative power of House Bill 1297.

In 1995, the Legislature took another stab at legally domesticating deer and elk. SB 2505 separated free ranging big game from “Nontraditional Livestock” fenced in escape proof fences.

In 1999, the legislature used HB 1337 as a vehicle to transform “Nontraditional Livestock”  into “Farmed Elk”. In the same year, SB 2505, separated free ranging big game from “Nontraditional Livestock”. Made them like sheep in a fold ready for the slaughter.

Read more at this link:
http://www.northdakotafairchase.com/legislative_history.html

Roger Kaseman on September 23, 2010 at 09:48 am
Avatar for gabe thompson jr

Roger since you seem willing to discuss this issue on here would you answer a some questions.
1. Are these animals as defined in the NDCC as privately owned domestic farmed elk able to be used as collateral as are all privately owned animals.
2. Do you believe the ability to use legally defined privately owned domestic animals in accordance with all state laws and regulations is a property right?
3. Will this measure open the door to the usage of the Federal Lacey Act to prevent someone from selling a live animal to someone else, receiving a bill of sale for said live animal, then killing the animal he now owns as you claimed it would on Nodak Outdoors?

gabe thompson jr on September 23, 2010 at 10:09 am
Avatar for LT

Roger,

Do you remember when you told me in Montana if they would have over ruled this measure, it would have set a precedent regarding mom and pop businesses to sue the state regarding licensing?  I told you that you had just proved my point that the state was in a catch 22 and that is why it took 2 years to decide regarding the last appeal. 

During the last appeal the Montana Wildlife Federation lawyer when asked by the judge, “if this was about disease why not shut down all these operations.”  The lawyer answered, because if we did that it would be considered a TAKINGS, but this way it is only a partial takings and no compensation is necessary.  The judge pushed back in disgust and said, “but isn’t that what you just did by taking away one of their major sources of income?”

So Roger, isn’t that what you are attempting to do here, shut these operations down without compensating them?

Why would one person have that much conviction to collect 6000 signatures the first go round with this measure and now collect 8350 signatures? 

By the way Roger, that is how the Humane Society of the United States works, using ballot initiatives and finding judges that are sympathetic to their cause.  Is that why you met with David Pauli, Regional Director for HSUS, two years ago?

LT on September 23, 2010 at 11:26 am
Avatar for Jim Jenson

ROGER KASEMAN IS A LIAR AND CHEATER! Its better to fight for something than against something. All he wants is to shut down these businesses because the owners make good money. They’ve worked, why let the government take over more? This is not humane, I’ve seen elk growers, whats the difference between being shot and being shot within many acres of fence.
Freedom of religion. Freedom of speech. Freedom to own property. We enjoy these freedoms as citizens of the United States of America. This country was founded on the right and freedom of personal choice. Don’t let that founding principle be compromised. Vote NO on Measure 2. piss off kaseman, you’re a damn fool

Jim Jenson on October 14, 2010 at 03:05 am
Avatar for Jim Jenson

I meant this isnt inhumane. I also liked how Roger didnt answer the questions which were given to him.

Jim Jenson on October 14, 2010 at 03:09 am
Avatar for LT

Meet Mr. Grosz, High Fence Operator:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T_LKXk2oO30

Link to your facebook pages.  Spread the word, vote no on measure 2.  The ND Elk Growers thank you.

LT on October 16, 2010 at 04:54 pm
Avatar for Paul

Vote No on Measure 2. 

http://huntersforhighfencehunting.com/jamestown-public-forum

Paul on October 21, 2010 at 10:54 am
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